Confirmed: America West to start service from Edmonton to LAX!
7:30am
Tue, Jul 06 6500 Edmonton, Canada
Canadair Regional Jet Los Angeles, CA 10:00am
Tue, Jul 06 Meal: None
Class: Coach
7:30pm
Wed, Jul 07 6505 Los Angeles, CA
Canadair Regional Jet Edmonton, Canada 11:45pm
Wed, Jul 07 Meal: None
Class: Coach
Now, I guess its a RJ but hey, the times are fabulous and who knows, if things go well we may see a real plane one day http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif
PS - It appears First class will be available. Starts Friday, June 4 ex-LAX and June 5 ex-YEG. The sched from YVR is very similar. The YEG sched allows connections in LAS too.
[This message has been edited by Altaflyer (edited Mar 06, 2004).]
Will YEG ever become the Alberta hub that YYC is? Probably not for many reasons, including a dithering decades-long two airport debate. While consolidation hasn't landed YEG the overseas sked flights yet our air options have improved greatly, and all without AC.
So the BIG whatever to you, Altaflyer. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif
Interestingly, though, while everyone uses the mother carrier's code [AS, HP and UA] it is not Alaska, AmericaWest or United who have been flying into YEG or even in most cases YYC, but their regional affiliates. These are lower cost operators flying RJs and DASH8 equipment, generally with one FA and few major cost components.
Once AC has gotten its new RJs and suitable working agreements with pilots for it can rationalize mainline, regional and ZIP operations, we may well see more non-strop transborder flights from YEG. Who knows? Of course, then we'll hear complaints about having to fly an RJ or a DASH8 for more than an hour, but...
Stranger AC's crusade against YEG is already over as they've slashed service to a bare minimum. I, for one, couldn't care less anymore as by their practices I began to fly their competitors. I've taken my $$ elsewhere and I'll probably never fly AC again if I have a choice. The only people who fly them are ones with a very misplaced loyalty.
Emotion has nothing to do with it. YEG-LAX made $$ for AC but the buffoons who run it thought they could make more $$ deploying the plane elsewhere (on the Zip routes). The fact that AC is in CCAA shows how good they are at making a profit on their routes.
Take my challenge from another thread. Fly in the a.m. YEG-YYC to connect trans-border and you'll see how poor YYC is. Until you do, your opinions are worthless about connecting in YYC.
It's my prediction that YYC service cuts are next in AC's world and in fact have already started. You'll see.
2004).]
Redeploying planes on potentially more profitable routes is a sensible business decision. Still, if YEG-LAX was indeed profitable, I have a hard time seeing that moving planes to ZIP (these would have been 737?) would make sense? Except as part of retirement of these antiques, that is?
As to cuts at YYC, sure, we had our share, just like anywhere. No more, or less. And I can see the rationale. A crusade it's not. Do I like it? No. But while I agree on most of the criticism directed at AC and its corporate culture, I can't really blame them for the service cuts.
http://www.americawest.com/traveltools/destinations/tp_add_svc.htm
The last time LHR was offered by AC was in summer of 2001. The service was heavily promoted by AC through a partnership with the airport authority. AC loads were dismal as C3 and Skyservice offered cheaper seats and took all the AC traffic.
What is dismal? I was on this flight in '01 and the particular flight was about 80% in Y and 65% in J, IIRC.
I'm sure to be using these flights for my very frequent California trips especially since AS started using Dash8s YEG-SEA.
So, let me see, that's 3 flights a day added by HP since October of 2003. One has to wonder why people in Edmonton can't see that hubbing through YYC is the answer.... http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/tongue.gif
[This message has been edited by PunishedEdmontonian (edited Mar 07, 2004).]
Emotion has nothing to do with it. YEG-LAX made $$ for AC but the buffoons who run it thought they could make more $$ deploying the plane elsewhere (on the Zip routes). The fact that AC is in CCAA shows how good they are at making a profit on their routes.
Take my challenge from another thread. Fly in the a.m. YEG-YYC to connect trans-border and you'll see how poor YYC is. Until you do, your opinions are worthless about connecting in YYC.
It's my prediction that YYC service cuts are next in AC's world and in fact have already started. You'll see.
P.S. Edited to add, I'd say Edmontonians are 'value-conscious' as opposed to 'cheap'. This is what people do when they spend their own money as opposed to expense account or 'grants' or are civil servants.
[This message has been edited by PunishedEdmontonian (edited Mar 14, 2004).]
Yes, more good post-consolidation news. More proof that one airport good, two bad.
Whatever.
Where are the 7 weekly flights to LHR that were there pre-consolidation? We were promised more that 3 RJ flights to the USA, that I know. Compared to having no sched service to Europe, a few flights to the US don't really make up for that.
Tell me why consolidation would make a difference to HP's decision to serve YEG?
Now HP is moving in with a 1x daily CRJ? I can only surmise that they think they will get enough cnx to their new Mexico flights ex-LAX a la AS. I guess we'll see how they do.
Perhaps this flight will also allow for connections with Hawaiian's flights to the island from LAX in addition to the PHX connection already offered. HP has been marketing this service quite heavily to Western Canadians, including billboards here in YYC
I hope this route will be a success like some of the other recently added ones.
Now that couldn't be the reason why AC has dropped YYC-LAX 7:00 a.m. departure except on Saturdays? Or is the real reason the AS flight? Or the fact Edmontonians won't connect throught YYC if given a choice? Or the fact that AC's master plan (sic) doesn't include YYC. Hope you enjoy connecting through YVR and YYZ in the future.
Come on? You think AC is on a crusade against YEG? Nonsense.
OK, perhaps AC doesn't understand how emotional you guys are about having to connect, of all places, at YYC?
If I fly to CDG, I connect at YYZ. If to Asia, at YVR. Etc. I don't expect AC will retain all sorts of unprofitable routes just in order to deal with my emotions. I live in a relatively small provincial place, so what? I don't claim it's the center of the universe. (As we all know, that's SFO. Which is where I last lived before I moved to this northern frontier. )
:-)
Once AC has gotten its new RJs and suitable working agreements with pilots for it can rationalize mainline, regional and ZIP operations, we may well see more non-strop transborder flights from YEG.
Yeah, right! Where did you read that? In RM's fairly tale book he's written? You're a few weeks early for April Fool's, SH. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif
The YEG market also has another twist. In my 15 plus years growing up in YEG, I always heard of travellers driving to YYC to get a cheaper seat (even if only saving $20-50). In my last 2.5 years in YYC, nobody even thinks of travelling to YEG and refuses the option when offered. Calgarians consider the road trip to long and boring and will pay extra to fly from home.
Maybe it's because YEG is already a fair bit outside the city, you already have to go south on Highway 2, might as well go all the way to YYC if it saves some $$$. As for Calgarians, YYC is in the city so it seems really far to leave the city to use another airport.
Eric
[This message has been edited by YUL (edited Mar 08, 2004).]
Still, if YEG-LAX was indeed profitable, I have a hard time seeing that moving planes to ZIP (these would have been 737?) would make sense?
Forgive me if I repeat a point I made on some other thread.
The Edmonton - Los Angeles service supposedly attained 75% loads and was probably quite profitable for Air Canada. None the less, it made perfect sense for Air Canada to discontinue it. Air Canada operates a hub-and-spokes airline model. Edmonton (and Los Angeles!) are spokes. The route probably cost the company $6 - $8 million per year to operate (I do not know the exact numbers). There were lots of empty seats flying between Edmonton and Vancouver (or Calgary) and lots of empty seats flying between Los Angeles and Vancouver (or Calgary). By putting Edmonton - Los Angeles passengers on connecting flights the company saved $6 - $8 million per year, and since there was no non-stop competition, their revenues were not much affected. For an airline in financial trouble it was an easy decision.
In a perverse way Air Canada's problems may be good for Edmonton's future air service. Previously, other carriers were shy about flying routes like Edmonton - Los Angeles out of fear that Air Canada could, if it wanted, jump in and swamp the interloper with service of its own. It now appears unlikely that Air Canada will have the ability to respond effectively to challenges to their spoke markets.
Hence America West!
[This message has been edited by proview (edited Mar 14, 2004).]
You have to give their IT people credit. If you look at the route map it is showing in there already. Another intersting point is on the route map it shows yyc-lax starting on june 6 but when you go to pull up the schedule it doesn't show. I wonder if this is a mistake or maybe it just hasn't been loaded in the system yet.
[This message has been edited by Ace Cdn (edited Mar 06, 2004).]
The story going about was that when the airport was doing marketing calls to the airlines, no one at the America West head office had ever heard of Edmonton. After looking the place up on a map and noting the lack of tran-border competition they decided to try out the Phoenix service. Presumably the Los Angeles announcement is due to good results on that one as well as bookings on the new Las Vegas service.
(I am not employed in the air transport industry).
I doubt that noone at HP ever heard of Edmonton. they used to run a flight LAS-YYC-YEG back in 1987 so I think the timing was right and that is why they started the service. Although I am sure some prodding by YEG airport didn't hurt http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif
A few people in Calgary do think they live in the center of the universe, and having a lot of options gives you the comfort in not having to experience the difficulties and frustrations others have to deal with who lack those options. It's called walking in someone else's shoes. Try it. Good for you if you have the service but don't called others whiners when they are trying to fight for a decent level of service.
Keep in mind that this setup to connect in YYC does impact those of us who do fly from here as AC/UA/etc. hold their flights in YYC for the PAX coming from YEG. It makes already tight connections even tighter or impossible to make in places like ORD. While this is far from the pain you have to go through just to get to YYC we are not immune from its effects and does frustrate us too.
There appears to be no one at the Airport Authority or the airlines who wants to address this issue. It justs gets the standard "We'll look into it" response and probably file 13.
I can't help but note that you did not answer my inquiry http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif
Give it up AltaFlyer! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/rolleyes.gif
As ought to be apparent, far more people in YEG and surrounding areas want to go to the US.
Secondly, I have lived under the flight path from the muni to YYC more or less continuously since 1966 and let me tell you I don't miss the noise a bit. Moreover, you'll note that the HP flights (especially the LAS one) take advantage of the fact that unlike YYZ for example YEG is open for business 24 hours a day. There's no way they could run flights between 12 midnight and 6:00 into the Muni without noise restrictions.
Need anything else?
[This message has been edited by PunishedEdmontonian (edited Mar 08, 2004).]
This is the same route that AC dropped 15 months ago due to whatever reason. Again, a competitor comes in and scoops up the business.
"Whatever reason?" Because the route was not paying off. Either planes were not full enough or if they were, it was because of deep discounting.
Now will someone explain why YEG has been prodicing so many whiners. People from Regina, Saskatoon, Victoria, Quebec City or Winnipeg are in a roughly similar situation. Yet they don't seem to take it as emotionally. Should they? :-)
(I am not employed in the air transport industry).
Yes, welcome to FT, proview. And BTW, you don't have to keep adding that line at the end of every post.
[B] Maybe it's because YEG is already a fair bit outside the city, you already have to go south on Highway 2, might as well go all the way to YYC if it saves some $$$. [B]
Okay 2 senarios,
1)I'm going to Vancouver last Saturday morning. I travel on Memorial Drive and turn north onto Deeerfoot/Highway 2. Travel down the road for ten minutes and turn off onto Airport Road to YYC.
2) I'm travelled to Vancouver five years ago. I get onto Whitemud Drive and turn south onto Calgary Trail/Highway 2. Travel down the road for fifteen minutes and turn off onto Airport Road to YEG.
Is five minutes really the difference?
You can make the case for "what about people from St. Albert?" Well I say that Cranston/MacKenzie Town is about the same distance and time away from YYC.
[This message has been edited by YEG Guy (edited Mar 10, 2004).]
Whether this is a result of Edmonton Airports and their renovations, or just HP's expansion plans ... would being intersting to know
In my graduating class, the German language students went to FRA through MSP, DTW and BOS and CDG; all to save $50. During this time they could have connected in YYC or LHR. This is typical of YEG passengers.
This is routing is not necessarily the result of peopel being cheap it is the result of travel agents not offering the most direct routing. I typically will book flights myself but to test my theory I called a few travel agents in Edmonton to see what they could get me for a trip to London. Not one offered me a routing through YYC, even though it was cheaper than some of the other routings. Hence why I look after thuings myself.
Originally posted by YEG Guy:
The last time LHR was offered by AC was in summer of 2001. The service was heavily promoted by AC through a partnership with the airport authority.
I will strongly disagree with you on this. There was very little promotion of this route in 2001. I found out about it by keeping abreast of the schedules not from any advertising. Again during this time (as I have mentioned before) people were going to travel agents and getting those milk run routings without even being offered the non-stop. Unfortunately by the time my flight in June 2001 it was already cancelled and I had the joy of going through YYC.
Are Edmontonians more price conscious?
AS drops YYC-LAX and does not get the same snide off-hand remarks that you give AC????
The flight will operate as a 1-stop a la YVR-SNA in the past two summers. I for one am happy to see AS finally fly YYC-SEA since the early am and late pm flights are almost always sold out or oversold which reduces the chances of choosing AS/QX from YYC to connect elsewhere in their network. It's only from June 6 to Oct 30 and then it returns to a non-stop; hopefully they will keep the AS jet on YYC-SEA is it does well enough. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/thumbsup.gif
However, there is a large segmnent of the Edmonton population where price rules everything. In my graduating class, the German language students went to FRA through MSP, DTW and BOS and CDG; all to save $50. During this time they could have connected in YYC or LHR. This is typical of YEG passengers.
The last time LHR was offered by AC was in summer of 2001. The service was heavily promoted by AC through a partnership with the airport authority. AC loads were dismal as C3 and Skyservice offered cheaper seats and took all the AC traffic. Essentially AC spent $1000,000 of advertising to put people onto C3 and Skyservice (which were always full). Therefore YEG got the service it supports, charter flights.
The YEG market also has another twist. In my 15 plus years growing up in YEG, I always heard of travellers driving to YYC to get a cheaper seat (even if only saving $20-50). In my last 2.5 years in YYC, nobody even thinks of travelling to YEG and refuses the option when offered. Calgarians consider the road trip to long and boring and will pay extra to fly from home.
Now I know that the summer fills things up better (and LAX will probably do great in the winter), but is the market really there, or will it just come at the expense of Horizon?
The upshot might be that we'll see the QX CRJ back up to YEG from SEA again, who knows?
I could see HP expanding the market here (especially to the west coast) but as far as YEG getting a flight to ORD or even LHR, I just don't see it.
(I am not employed in the air transport industry).
AS drops YYC-LAX and does not get the same snide off-hand remarks that you give AC????
Well it is unfortunate that AS is cancelling the service and if I lived in YYC or frequently used YYC as my gateway I might care more. Unless I drive the 2.5 hours to YYC this has zero effect on me. An AC reduction somewhere is more likely to have an effect as there is at least a slight chance I might use that service on a connecting basis.
Well it appears that Alaska's YYC-LAX is toast, sort of. ....
AC has made many STUPID decisions - they are in CCAA afterall. Saying the decision to axe the YEG-LAX was a wise one seems questionable at best.
....
AS drops YYC-LAX and does not get the same snide off-hand remarks that you give AC????
Back in the early '90s when I flew NW regularly between YEG-MSP and points beyond in the US, their DC9s were always filled in the front cabin [only 8 seats], but upgrades got better for us Plats when they changed to A320s. Through the 80s and early 90s, Western had the best service [and FF program] between YEG and US points west. That remained for a while when DL took them over, but soon the economy tanked and DL pulled out.
Maybe it's because YEG is already a fair bit outside the city, .
This has been the traditional knock on the Edmonton airport since it opened 40 years ago. However, I do not think it is as much of an issue as it once was. Edmonton has been creeping south, partly because the airport is there. South Edmonton is not really farther from it's airport than Calgary is from it's. When I drive from South Edmonton to Calgary I pass the airport 15-20 minutes after starting and arrive at my destination in North West Calgary about 15 minutes after passing the Calgary airport.
The more valid point is that markets are conditioned to travel in ways that conform to the options available to them.
Of course, your opinions may vary.
AC has made many STUPID decisions - they are in CCAA afterall. Saying the decision to axe the YEG-LAX was a wise one seems questionable at best.
Anyways, enjoy your flights from YYC, while they last - I hope to visit your airport on the rarest of occasions only.
http://www.alaskaair.com/www2/Destinations/munged_qs/destination.asp(city+yeg)
Forgive me if I repeat a point I made on some other thread.
The Edmonton - Los Angeles service supposedly attained 75% loads and was probably quite profitable for Air Canada. None the less, it made perfect sense for Air Canada to discontinue it. Air Canada operates a hub-and-spokes airline model. Edmonton (and Los Angeles!) are spokes. The route probably cost the company $6 - $8 million per year to operate (I do not know the exact numbers). There were lots of empty seats flying between Edmonton and Vancouver (or Calgary) and lots of empty seats flying between Los Angeles and Vancouver (or Calgary). By putting Edmonton - Los Angeles passengers on connecting flights the company saved $6 - $8 million per year, and since there was no non-stop competition, their revenues were not much affected. For an airline in financial trouble it was an easy decision.
Seems you agree with me that it was a sensible business decision then?
So, why all that emotion? There must be at least three threads here on how poor Edmonton is being victimized by some AC crusade. When it's just business like everywhere else.
In a perverse way Air Canada's problems may be good for Edmonton's future air service. Previously, other carriers were shy about flying routes like Edmonton - Los Angeles out of fear that Air Canada could, if it wanted, jump in and swamp the interloper with service of its own. It now appears unlikely that Air Canada will have the ability to respond effectively to challenges to their spoke markets.
Hence America West!
If you like Cactus, be my guest. I suspect, no matter I love to hate AC, I would rather connect. But eh, to each his own.
(It's not that I have not been looking for potential alternatives to AC. More like, all of them look worse, except if you live in YYZ or YVR and you mostly fly overseas.)
"Whatever reason?" Because the route was not paying off. Either planes were not full enough or if they were, it was because of deep discounting....
Now that couldn't be the reason why AC has dropped YYC-LAX 7:00 a.m. departure except on Saturdays? Or is the real reason the AS flight? Or the fact Edmontonians won't connect throught YYC if given a choice? Or the fact that AC's master plan (sic) doesn't include YYC. Hope you enjoy connecting through YVR and YYZ in the future.
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